By Maulana Tauqir Raza Barailvi, Tr. New Age Islam
16 August 2019
Translated by New Age Islam Edit Bureau from Urdu Audio of a telephonic discussion between Maulana Tauqir Raza Barailvi and Maulana Ahmed Raza Samnani over Triple Talaq Bill, 2019
Click here to listen audio of the telephonic conversation between Maulana Barailvi and Maulana Samnani
Maulana Tauqir Raza Barailvi: They did not consider Triple Talaq three divorces but one divorce.
Maulana Ahmad Reza Samanani: Yes Huzur.
Maulana Tauqir Raza Barailvi: That's right, is it not?
Maulana Ahmad Raza Samanani: Yes Hazrat. You have rightly said. But when I heard your statement through social media, I was surprised how could such a statement come from you?
Maulana Tauqir Raza Barailvi: No, but what has come to you is precisely right.
Maulana Ahmad Reza Samanani: Yes.
Maulana Tauqeer Raza Barailvi: We were struggling to make them believe three divorces as three. They used to say that Triple Talaq is invalid and that pronouncement of Triple Talaq takes place as just one divorce. Now after the Bill has passed, according to which, Triple Talaq will cause punishment; it is quite clear that they too have considered three divorces as three. It means we have won in our struggle. The common Muslims, however, are unable to understand this simple thing.
Maulana Ahmad Raza Samnani: But Huzur, the point to note is that, if marriage breaks, then how can relationship continue with the spouse?
Maulana Tauqir Raza Barailvi: How can you talk about spouse relationships? You are a literate man. When a man pronounces three divorces, how could he continue his relationship?
Maulana Ahmad Raza Samnani: No Huzur, according to this bill, the court can establish relationship and after punishment, marriage can be sustained.
Maulana Tauqir Raza Barailvi: No, No. The one who is a follower of Islam is a follower of Shariat law. After Talaq, his wife will be forbidden for him.
Maulana Ahmad Raza Samnani: Yes Huzur, you are right.
Maulana Tauqir Raza Barailvi: Listen, they have passed the Bill over Talaq-e-Bid’ah and not over Talaq-e-Ahsan and Talaq-e-Hasan. Talaq Bida’h (Instant Triple Talaq) which is often pronounced in the state of anger or intoxication or any other (mental) state was severely condemned by the Prophet (peace be upon him). In the era of Hazrat Umar, the man who pronounced Triple Talaq in one setting was whipped.
So, if according to the Bill, such Talaq leads to punishment, this should be welcomed. We used to say that Talaq occurs even if it is pronounced in the state of anger or intoxication, but some people refused to accept it. Now since the Bill has passed, they have confirmed that the one who pronounces Triple Talaq will be punished for three years; which means they will have to consider Triple Talaq to be valid as three (and final divorce). In this way we have won but we don’t understand why the people are opposing the Bill or is there something else?
Maulana Ahmad Raza Samanani: Our Saeed Noori Sahib, the Chairman of Raza Academy is also one of those who are opposing this Bill.
Maulana Tauqeer Raza Barailvi: Some people just have to show off. By fuelling religious sentiment, some people take interest in bringing their names into limelight, photograph and fame in newspapers. Some people are opposing the Bill unnecessarily. They should support the Bill instead. We are angry with what we should be happy about. Actually, we have won in our struggle but they are venting as if we were losers.
Maulana Ahmad Raza Samanani: Yes Huzur. Recently a statement has also come from Asjad Raza sahib. He is considered authoritative personality of our Sunni group.
Maulana Tauqir Raza Barailvi: You are a literate man. So, tell me, what do you understand by it?
Maulana Ahmad Raza Samnani: I think that whatever injustice had been happening to women till date will definitely decrease a bit now.
Maulana Tauqeer Raza Barailvi: Injustice was inflicted upon women till now, as irresponsible divorces such as divorce in the state of anger and intoxication were happening. Was it not the responsibility of all the scholars and liberals to bring awareness to people that they should not adopt this method of Talaq, considering it a sin?
Maulana Ahmad Raza Samnani: Indeed, this is their failure because of which such thing is happening today.
Maulana Tauqir Raza Barailvi: They were ruining the lives of the women. We should think now not as husband but as a father and brother of a sister. As for these people, I do not understand how these people are thinking and why they are perpetrating such (despicable) acts. The very simple thing is that though they have passed this Bill to dishearten Muslims despite our objection, it is true that our Ulema could not do what our God has got done by the government. The life of our daughters will be safe as the Bill will prevent irresponsible divorces.
Maulana Ahmad Raza Samnani: But there is an expectation from people like you, because you have a good platform and influence as well. You are expected to prepare a methodology to deal with the situation. The court has recently issued a judgement that the marriage is not invalid in cases of Triple Talaq. So, after returning from jail, if according to the court, the marriage is not broken, she will not go to her mother's house. It means she will stay at her husband's house. In this case, the forbidden acts will take place. So, you people should prepare a way which can stop the occurrence of forbidden acts.
Maulana Tauqir Raza Barailvi: You have not yet understood. The husband will be punished only when the crime of his triple Talaq is proven. Triple Talaq is a crime. When three divorces are accepted as a crime, it means that all three divorces have taken place. He will be punished only if three divorces are proved. Hazrat Umar (may Allah be pleased with him) has also enacted this punishment by flogging the criminal. After the divorces have taken place, there is no question of staying with her. The only fear is that the couple, after three divorces, may come to reconcile and commit forbidden acts.
How much irresponsible we Muslims are! For example, even the Muslim children of India know that drinking alcohol is forbidden; however, the practice of wine-drinking is becoming common among Muslims. Who are responsible? It is just as if we were demanding to ban alcohol so that our children can be safe. If we can’t stop our children, it is our fault, isn’t it? We, however, consider it the fault of wine-sellers. In fact, it is our fault that we are still unable to stop our children. In the same way, these people should stop their children from pronouncing Triple Talaq, rather than campaigning against Triple Talaq Bill. There is no use campaigning against the government. Instead we should create awareness among our people as much as we can. So dear brothers, getting wine-shops banned will not benefit us. The people will not stop drinking, unless we prevent them.